Very much agree. I used to get hamstrung by this pretty often when I was a newer referee. If I gave the attack too much leeway the first time, I felt "locked in" to calling it that way for the rest of the bout, at least to give the fencers some consistency. The FOC seems right in that you don't want to make the mistake in the first place, but what the hell. Ain't nobody perfect, and telling developing referees that the solution to a problem they might face fairly often is to "be perfect" doesn't solve anything.

It's a fundamental flaw of referee development that we treat "don't make mistakes" as the only development mechanism. Of course, in an career where there's almost no training, no development, just a series of mistakes that get fewer and fewer as you progress, it's not really a surprise.

I had that exact situation while I was reffing a Y10 sabre DE. Left was chasing down right and then finishing foot-hand, and I just wasn't seeing it. Of course, the "footwork" was jerky and uncoordinated and just plain obfuscated, but it was happening. After I did 1 5 touch bout calling that the attach, Waldek blew up at me. After his explosion, both fencers went back to what they were doing and I couldn't ignore the foot landing, it was just so blatant all of a sudden. I couldn't call it any other way then.

So, the original answer is apparently that was a bout I shouldn't have done. On the other hand, now I can see it.

I agree, but there has to be an answer better than "I was over my head" or "oh well, the fencers are screwed." I just don't know what the answer is...

The more I think about reffing, the more frustrating it is. I really do love the activity itself. I like pressure, I like challenge, and I like pushing myself to the extreme limit of human perception. Its fun!

That said, the politics of it combined with the terrible feedback loop are maddening. The feedback is one of the thins thats bothering me right now. There's almost zero positive feedback, and there is an abundance of negative feedback. However, the negative feedback isn't necessarily related to subpar performance.

Using myself as a case study, I refereed a lot of high level epee this year. 4 bouts in the round of 32 of division 1, a mess of 32s and 16s of juniors, and some finals in cadets. I feel like I did a very good job with all of it. I'm to a point where I think I'm legitimately a good epee ref, as opposed to the serviceable one I was a year ago.

That said, I'm still a 5 in epee, just like I was a year, or 2 years ago. I was kind of expecting to get a 4 in epee this year. As it is, I have zero knowledge of why I didn't get it. I got no negative feedback from high level referees this year. Based on that, you'd think I would be doing well. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not? Who knows...

Its frustrating when the 1 bit of negative feedback I got from FOC type (in foil) was getting chewed out by a head referee for some BS stuff that really isn't that big of a deal, and when I asked the same head ref about some other elements of the bout he chewed me out for, he basically ignored me.

This feedback loop sucks.

Talk about being frustrated with reffing National events.

Granted, at this point it barely matters. I probably won't be doing any national work this season anyway. Just 2 coaches at my new club, and any time 1 of us is coaching at a NAC, the other has to stay behind and run the club. Also, I'm frustrated enough at the lack of payment, and the abundance of c***, that I don't want to lend my money to the USFA. Considering I own the new club, that would be like me lending my club's money to the USFA. Why would any any new business owner do that?

Wow, this has turned into quite the little rant.

Probably everyone has complaiined at some point about "training" referees, up to taking the matter up with the FOC. I'm not sure what the resistance is to running more workshops or even camps on this, especially in saber. Matt Cox and a few others have been pulling people aside and talking to them about saber calls, and listening to some of those discussions has been very helpful. Why isn't this done more, at a more organized level? I have no idea.

Getting an increased epee rating isn't as easy as one might think. I know many referees who have done bouts for a number of years at a high level in epee who were never up graded. Why? They never had to make any calls, and if they did make tough calls, no one from the FOC saw the call.

One of my students was just upgraded in epee recently, and I suspect it's because he was observed making a number of tough calls in the last year at a decently high level.

A

I was overpromoted early on in my career, and I don't know how much that's damaged me ever since. I started referring in August of 2005, and got my 7 in epee sometime between then and February. I was recommended for NAC E as a trainee, and received my 5 at my first NAC. (I had a high pressure bout in front of the BC table between Bob Cochrane and Abdel Salem that probably got me that.) That Summer Nationals I got my 4, although I can't find anyone who will admit to giving it to me. So zilch to 4 in less than a year.
For the last 4 years, no change. I wonder if I'd spent a year as a 5 I'd have had a different trajectory. On the other hand, another referee I know who got his 4 a long time ago was told "we promoted you last year so we didn't consider you again" for 2 or more years in a row, got his 3, and then was told the same thing for the next 3 years, including this year.

I'm thinking maybe armory or BC work might become more rewarding now.

So apparently in addition to there being a need for better referee development there is also a need for better referee development development. The FOCs don't seem particularly good at teaching and evaluation, if your examples are any indication.

Are there really not even occasional formal one-on-one performance reviews for you guys?

KD5MDK - same sort of thing happened to me, which was part of why I stopped.

@Inq - No, I don't think there's every been a formal performance review of anyone.

Just to note in the original scenario - despite doing a correct AiP and losing the call twice, Y still managed to score 14 other points. They may not have done the best job of adjusting to the referee in the world, but it's not like they stole the entire bout for X either.

Alright, some assorted things to respond to:

@Allen: I really don't mean this to be a post about complaining that I didn't get a 4 in epee. Between it not even being my primary (or secondary) weapon, and the fact that reffing isn't my biggest concern at the moment, I promise its not that big a deal to me. I am, however, quite frustrated at the state of national refereeing as a whole. I am very frustrated at the terrible feedback loop for the entire experience.

@KD5MDK: In terms of being overpromoted, do you feel like it hurt you in some way? I know developmentally, I think I got my 5 in epee too quickly. I've now been a 5 in epee for right around 3 years. I am a wayyyy better ref now than I was then. Thats reflected in the quality of calls I make, the level of bout I am trusted with, my ability to handle fencers and coaches, and everything else about the job. The fact that a 5 is supposed to represent what I was then, as well as what I am now, I find almost laughable. It makes me lose even more confidence in the rating system.

And in terms of the original scenario, my point is that the person that made the smart decision in the end got punished, and the person that made the wrong decision in the end got rewarded. At that point in a bout, right or wrong, a fencer shouldn't be "hoping" that a ref will suddenly see it his way. To hope that he will is a terrible tactical choice, and one I generally wouldn't encourage my fencers to make. The ref suddenly changing is rewarding what IMHO is the wrong choice.

I'm saying that Y deserved to lose that bout, and I don't like him winning . I know that sounds ridiculous, but I stand by it. Even though he *did* win it, its not something he should be practicing. I would never encourage one of my fencers to make that decision, and I'd hope no coach would either.

Alright, some assorted things to respond to:

@Allen: I really don't mean this to be a post about complaining that I didn't get a 4 in epee. Between it not even being my primary (or secondary) weapon, and the fact that reffing isn't my biggest concern at the moment, I promise its not that big a deal to me. I am, however, quite frustrated at the state of national refereeing as a whole. I am very frustrated at the terrible feedback loop for the entire experience.

@KD5MDK: In terms of being overpromoted, do you feel like it hurt you in some way? I know developmentally, I think I got my 5 in epee too quickly. I've now been a 5 in epee for right around 3 years. I am a wayyyy better ref now than I was then. Thats reflected in the quality of calls I make, the level of bout I am trusted with, my ability to handle fencers and coaches, and everything else about the job. The fact that a 5 is supposed to represent what I was then, as well as what I am now, I find almost laughable. It makes me lose even more confidence in the rating system.

And in terms of the original scenario, my point is that the person that made the smart decision in the end got punished, and the person that made the wrong decision in the end got rewarded. At that point in a bout, right or wrong, a fencer shouldn't be "hoping" that a ref will suddenly see it his way. To hope that he will is a terrible tactical choice, and one I generally wouldn't encourage my fencers to make. The ref suddenly changing is rewarding what IMHO is the wrong choice.

I'm saying that Y deserved to lose that bout, and I don't like him winning . I know that sounds ridiculous, but I stand by it. Even though he *did* win it, its not something he should be practicing. I would never encourage one of my fencers to make that decision, and I'd hope no coach would either.