catwood1

Cherry Blossom

, 03-30-2009 at 01:01 PM (115 Views)

I reffed Cherry Blossom all weekend. It was a pretty good time. Saturday was great. A little epee through the, then I moved over to womens sabre. I had asked the assignor if it would be possible to get observed in sabre, so he assigned me a pool with Oiuyt. Awesome experience! I reffed the whole pool, except the bouts of 1 fencer who I was a conflict with. I then went into the DE table, and did bouts all the way up including a semi. Oiuyt had some very helpful comments about some things I was missing, and also mentioned that he didn't notice anything else wrong, which means some of the close calls I wasn't 100% confident in were probably correct. Yay!

Sunday wasn't quite as good. Foil started off fine. The last 2 bouts I did didn't go to well. VERY angry fencers in both of them. 1 in the 32, 1 in the 16. In the 32, the main cause of anger was that I was calling AiPs pretty tight, and neither fencer liked it. 1 fencer REALLY didn't like it. There was also one of those actions where 1 guy attacks, ther spins. No light, then the remise of the spinner hits. I give him a yellow, and he is arguing saying "but I hit!!" even though he didn't hit the first one...

There was 1 particular call in that bout that I'm still not quite sure about. Fencer A attacks, B parries. A continues to close the distance with his immediately remise. (Immediate as in he never stops.) B pulls his hand way back then makes his riposte. I gave it to A. Obviously, and understandably, B was arguing. I still think it was right though. I could absolutely see it going either way, but I think it was right. If I take a blade action and pull my hand way back, and you go strait, and we both hit, its not my touch...

The next bout in the 16 was...interesting. Both quite good fencers. 1 guy was constantly arguing that he was making an AiP that I wasn't seeing. Its not like I stopped calling it tight. I was wasn't seeing his AiP being in time. Guy on the right comes foreword in prep. Guy on left sees the prep. Guy on right starts slow extension. Guy on left attempts AiP. Attack arrives.

It was also a biatch to ref, because they were both CONSTANTLY going off the strip. 1 time where I pushed one of them off the end when he went off the side and he was mad. They got to infighting a little inside* of the 2M warning. The guy on the left (the one closer to his own endline) was about .5m inside his own warning line. From a very close distance, he went off the side. I advanced the other fencer 1m, and had him extend. The guy on the left was off the side. He was arguing something about how could he lose more than 1m when the penalty is only 1m. I ended up giving him a G3 red, then he shut up (more or less).

At 14-12 there was a very close call. There was a prep, a choppy attack from the other side, and the finish from both sides. I called attack in prep short, counter attack arrives (granted, I didn't make it perfectly clear to an observer what I was calling, which was my fault.) There were 2 good refs watching the end of the bout, 1 of whom is a "1" in foil. They both disagreed with me. They also both sorta had that "I understand why you would say that, but I don't agree with you" kinda approach. Maybe I made a sabre call? In sabre, I definitely would have called prep, attack no, counter arrives. But in foil, maybe the AiP was good. I wish someone had that touch on video. I'd REALLY like to see it again. And so goes refereeing, haha.

After, I got moved over to womens epee, which just felt like it draaaaaged and draggeeeddddd on forever. Ah well. Finally got it all finished and got home.

I also had my first time calling non-combativity this weekend in the epee. They REALLY didn't give me a choice about it.

Overall, a fun weekend, and I was happy to get out reffing again. I look foreword to the Mr. Ma Cup, which will probably be the next BIG event I do, although I'll see some local stuff before then. Mainly, I'm fencing 2 events this month. Wait, I'm fencing 2 weekends this month. 1 weekend I'm fencing 3 events. Why not?!?!?!

*Inside meaning towards the center of the strip, outside meaning towards the endline.

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Comments

tbryan - 03-30-2009 11:56 PM
I gave it to B....I think it was right. If I take a blade action and pull my hand way back, and you go strait, and we both hit, its not my touch...

Am I just being slow, or did that last part not quite make sense? It sounds like you're saying that you think you were right but that the fencer who pulled his hand back (B) shouldn't get the touch.

He was arguing something about how could he lose more than 1m when the penalty is only 1m.

Blah. Fencers don't know the rules. If they did, a fencer would know as soon as he left strip with the opponent just outside his warning zone that he's toast.

What exactly did you give him the G3 red for? Was it not sufficient to explain that the "1 meter penalty" means that his opponent gains a meter and that the rule book specifically mentions the case where that distance penalty pushes one of the fencers off the back of the strip?
catwood1 - 03-31-2009 10:34 AM
Sorry about the A B thing, I edited that and fixed it. I called it against the guy who pulled his hand back.

I gave the G3 red for disturbing order. I made the call, he argued. If there is an "argument window" of what is reasonable, he went WAY over it, running around flailing his arms, miming out positions on the strip, and generally b****ing and moaning. I felt the best thing to do to control the situation was give the G3 red. He had already argued alot in the bout, and it was only getting worse.
tbryan - 03-31-2009 10:49 PM
I called it against the guy who pulled his hand back.

The way it's described, I'm not sure that I'd agree. But I think that you're refereeing harder bouts than the ones I normally referee. I think that it's a good exchange to discuss with your referee mentors. I think that you'll find that most of them would give it to the guy who made the parry and then pulled his arm back as long as he just wasn't wandering forward with his arm back. Since the remise was immediate since it never stopped, that sounds unlikely. Really, if you think of a fairly common foil riposte, such as reaching out for a sweeping, circular-7 parry, with riposte to the back, you'll realize that foilists pull their arm back all the time between the blade contact and making the touch.

If there is an "argument window" of what is reasonable, he went WAY over it

Yes, well, some people just don't get it, and I guess you end up having to give a penalty card. I've just been lucky enough not to have to do that. Most fencers can take a hint.

Fencer argues.

I explain (briefly) so that the fencer understands that I do know the rule. "When you leave the strip, your opponent gains a meter. We reset the center based on his new position, and the rules specifically permit you to be pushed off the back of the strip. Touch for my left. On guard."

A smart fencer now knows that he has no leg to stand on. I know the rule. There's nothing he can appeal. He's not going to convince me that his opponent was really back *there*. Almost everyone gets the hint here. He got to say something, I explained. Time to move on.

Fencer continues to argue.

At this point, I probably cut him off and say something terse but not angry, such as, "No. The touch is for my left. Fencers, come on guard, please."

Fencer starts to argue again.

At this point, I raise my hand to the appropriate pocket (for the yellow or red card), make direct eye contact with the fencer who's now just begging for a card, and say, "On guard, please."

Even a dumb fencer normally gets that hint. I've never gotten past this point. I actually rarely reach this point.

If they kept arguing, I'd probably just card for delay of bout (Group I) since they're refusing to come on guard when requested. That would be the hint that I'm not afraid to give cards, and they should calm down and fence. That way, I can escalate later to a Group III before I have to start reaching for a black card.

I have also once handled this situation by (briefly) explaining my call and then, when they continue to argue, asking, "I'm sorry. Are you making an appeal?" If there's no chance of a valid appeal, they'll get smart and say, "No." Then, I can just say, "OK. Then please come on guard." The fencer had his (brief) say. Asking that question gets him back onto the referee's track. It seems more difficult for them to start arguing again at that point.

I made a post about this previously, but a few minutes of searching didn't turn it up.
catwood1 - 04-01-2009 03:34 PM
Yea, ya know, the more I think about it, the more I think that riposte call was wrong. It might have been right, but it definitely could have been wrong... Damn...
tbryan - 04-01-2009 04:45 PM
the more I think about it, the more I think that...call was wrong....Damn...

That feeling you're feeling is you becoming a better referee.