Interesting perspective, but I tend to think of tempo in musical terms, where it is not the length of time that the note is played, it is the timing of when to play the note.

There is an argument to be made for tempo in terms of a musical approach, but it falls down in many circumstances. When I talk about tempo, I'm usually talking about distance/speed/timing/acceration/position of blades relationships.

That's too long to type in every time I want to write about it, so I use "tempo" as a shorthand. As Gary Copeland says "tempo" is poorly defined by fencers and coaches alike, and any statement about tempo attempting to fix the definition in place can be proven to be incorrect. In response, some coaches don't use the phrase at all, and never attempt to define it for the student.

A

Nice to see you posting in this section, as I have always enjoyed your posts Allen. I look forward to reading your journal from time to time.

I agree with Fencergrl. Always nice to see someone start blogging. Looking forward to future entries. Your perspective IS interesting and I could be completely wrong.

Hi Allen,

I use the music analogy only in the sense of changing tempo...most of my students have taken guitar or piano at some point, and understand altering the timing of footwork from a predictable 1-2-3-4 to 1-23-4. I haven't tried anything more sophisticated than that though.

Keep sharing your good advice.

Brian

In thinking of tempo with distance and footwork preparing an action or phase. I have in the past been a student of military history to examine how fients and counter fients are used to develop the end actions that you are looking for.

Allen,

Tempo can mean at least two things. One, the time-distance-rhythm interplay that you are talking about. Two, tempo is choosing the right time for an action--attacking when the opponent is flat-footed, counter-attacking or taking the blade when the opponent closes distance more than he/she realizes, etc. One of my Hungarian masters once described it as "finding the instant BETWEEN your opponent's actions." I often think of it as "getting inside" my opponent's tempo.

Learning to play with time-distance-rhythm helps you develop a feeling for tempo in the second sense. Precise footwork really helps--especially footwork that emphasize half-steps (which essentially double your time--if you make an advance correctly and your opponent gallops, you have two tempos to his one....). Coordination between hand and feet is also absolutely vital.

Not sure I explained this very clearly, but it is very important.

Cheers, MR

Sabreur:

I think the axis of my post was that so many fencers I know talk about tempo in terms of just one dimension (if they talk about tempo at all). I'm fascinated by this focus on bladework, esp. by F.netters who are exposed to some sophisticated concepts in some posts.

It's not coincidence that everyone who has to talk about tempo comes up with a phrase close to your "getting inside" your opponent's tempo. My last coach an I talked about being at or inside the one-tempo distance to the opponent. By definition, that HAS to occur to score.

What I probably DIDN'T make as clear in my post are my stuggles to codify a clear, step-by-step approach to teaching fencers to appreciate tempo, to use tempo. This came up again this weekend in a lesson, in which I was working from a tempo basis, and my student was working from a blade basis. It took a couple of minutes to sort out, but caused confusion all the same.

A

Allen,

This is a GREAT discussion, for coaches and students alike. Sabreur mentioned that Temp can refer to at least two things; Actually, it's such a vague term that it almost always needs an adjective to describe just what we're talking about....

The tempo can be, as described above in a musical sense, the pacing of multiple actions, specifically the intervals between them. (Hence the diffence in tempo between advance-and-lunge 1--2--3 and patinando 1--2-3.) Tempo is sometimes refered to as the speed of the actions, but that is not exactly correct.

The term "Blade Tempo" is sometimes used to describe the actions and pacing of blade actions, sometimes independent of the distance or what the feet are doing. E.g. reaction to opponent's prise, method & timing of blade attacks, use of riposte & deceptions, etc. This is distinguished from "Foot Tempo" in that the blade motions are considered in relation to the target and the opponent's blade, and separately from footwork actions (gross generalization!)

The term "Foot Tempo" can be used to describe the timing, actions and pacing of distance or footwork. Opening distance, Closing distance, timing actions to coincide with opponent's movements, varying timing & speed of actions for tactics, etc.

The Tempo of the phrase or bout can refer to the timing and rhythm of the actions of the fencers - a 'larger picture' concept.

I'm sure that I've left off some things, and have offended some people's sense of definition. Refining the definitions could go on indefinitely....

We will all acknowledge the importance of teaching fencers the rhythm of their actions, and how to break those rhythms - creating variances in their footwork/bladework tempos. It is also important to teach them to see the rhythm of their opponents' actions - but harder....

From a Strategic view (or perhaps logistical ), "Getting inside" an opponent's timing, and similar concepts, involves much more of a sense of distance and timing than of speed. From my perspective, the "getting inside" means finding the moment(s) when an opponent is doing something that will *LEAD* to an opening. That is, if you see the opening, it's already too late to use it.

An example is in order: Starting from just OUTSIDE of Advance-lunge distance, a fencer may perceive when an opponent moves forward. If the opponent is attacking, it is not a simple opening (that's a different discussion). But if he/she moves forward without attacking, he/she has just moved into the fencer's lunge distance, creating an opening.

I work with my students to help them perceive the difference between an attack and a movement forward. If they can perceive this, they can launch an attack which lands before the opponent finishes the advance.

This "Golden Moment" to attack was the subject of an article in the Summer 2006 Swordmaster (US Fencing Coaches Assoc). In my eyes, this concept goes to the heart of using tempo tactically.

There are other implementations of the use of "stealing tempo," but all hinge on perception of the opponents' actions, and doing things at the proper time. Ahhhh..... so easy to say....

Cordially,

Rick Thompson,
Coach, Palmetto Fencers
=====================
"Timing, Distance, Tactics, and a pointy stick."

You and I agree about this completely. I'm going to observe again good American épée fencing in a few weeks and will have more to say about this soon. It has occurred to me that Beck's system needs to be reworked. The way I've seen tempo taught here is either in highly controlled (thus artificial) situations in lesson and in tactical bouting. You know I'm a big fan of the latter, but when I was learning it was the Beck business that taught me correct tempo on the attack.

We should put our heads together once I've read his book and see what can be updated such that a dynamic sequence of actions can be put together such that a student can practice again and again (with varying degrees of technical rectitude).

One insight. Although I've never heard it explicitly expressed, but we rarely ever do lunges in isolation. I would say that ninety percent of the lunges we do are advance lunges. Which means that beginners are naturally changing tempo on attacks.

One of the things that turned my epee lessons from simple mechanical exercises into more advanced epee lessons was moving from a lunge finish to an advance lunge finish, with all the possibilities and complications that this entails.

In foil and saber, I never taught anything other than advance and lunge as a "unit" of an attack.

The struggle always seems to be to get the student's footwork up to the level of competence that they can do these actions, reliably. I am so sad that even "A" level fencers come to me with such poor footwork (except the one "A" level saber fencer I worked with). I am beginning to understand why Leon Auriol (a graduate of the old Paris Fencing Master's school) never teaches much besides mechanics. One of the criteria of using tempo well is a good execution of technique: both in your feet and your hand.

I have this late night fantasy of finding someone who knows the Tauber system well, and locking them up in a gym with me for a week so I can deconstruct the Beck system,. and really understand it.

I know that Paul Soter has -- in the past -- offered clinics in the Beck system, but I don't know if he's doing that any more.

AE